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Posted 10/15/18 , edited 10/16/18
I think you ignored a lot of pertinent factors that lead up to Hina's decision that she had to make the decision on her own.

That conversation that Rui tells her that she should have stuck it out illustrates clearly the difference in the mindset of the two sisters and why I will never warm to Rui. Rui wants to be with Natsuo so badly she will damn all consequences so that both of them could go down in flames while Hina will let go if being with her will hurt the person she loves. Rui realised that her perspective was off.

It was made clear that students also would suffer if they got involved with teachers. Hina did not want him punished and took all of the punishment on herself - agreeing to cut all contact.

Regarding her not including Natsuo in her decision, he proved that he would not have been able to make an informed decision - he was too young and naive. He was trying to hold her hand in public in school, he was getting frustrated at her trying to take things slowly so that they could both be together after he graduated.

She knew him well enough that he would have only made the decision to leave everything and come with her. She could not allow him to leave that environment that was nurturing his aspirations or his family and friends.
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Posted 10/16/18 , edited 10/16/18

LaTigreBlue wrote:

I think you ignored a lot of pertinent factors that lead up to Hina's decision that she had to make the decision on her own.

That conversation that Rui tells her that she should have stuck it out illustrates clearly the difference in the mindset of the two sisters and why I will never warm to Rui. Rui wants to be with Natsuo so badly she will damn all consequences so that both of them could go down in flames while Hina will let go if being with her will hurt the person she loves. Rui realised that her perspective was off.

It was made clear that students also would suffer if they got involved with teachers. Hina did not want him punished and took all of the punishment on herself - agreeing to cut all contact.

Regarding her not including Natsuo in her decision, he proved that he would not have been able to make an informed decision - he was too young and naive. He was trying to hold her hand in public in school, he was getting frustrated at her trying to take things slowly so that they could both be together after he graduated.

She knew him well enough that he would have only made the decision to leave everything and come with her. She could not allow him to leave that environment that was nurturing his aspirations or his family and friends.


"Hina will let it go if being with her will hurt the person she loves"

What she did hurt him quite a lot. As I keep saying over and over, the way she did it could easily have caused him to do something very reckless that would have ruined or ended his life. He was very close to revealing their relationship to others quite a few times because he was so desperate to get her back.

Also, involving Natsuo in the conversation doesn't necessarily mean allowing the relationship to keep going. It means at least explaining to him face to face why she was doing what she was doing and why she needed to do it. Doing it with a letter was frankly cowardly.

Most of all though, it is taking all of the agency away from Natsuo. Don't claim you are doing something for the benefit of someone else, if you give them absolutely no input on the decision. It was Natsuo's life and Natsuo should have been part of the conversation.

If Hina wanted to break it off for Hina, that's fine...but do it like a proper adult and do it face to face. Claiming to do it for Natsuo's benefit without even allowing him to have any agency in a decision that affects his life is a total cop out.
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Posted 10/16/18 , edited 10/17/18
"Most of all though, it is taking all of the agency away from Natsuo. Don't claim you are doing something for the benefit of someone else, if you give them absolutely no input on the decision. It was Natsuo's life and Natsuo should have been part of the conversation.

If Hina wanted to break it off for Hina, that's fine...but do it like a proper adult and do it face to face. Claiming to do it for Natsuo's benefit without even allowing him to have any agency in a decision that affects his life is a total cop out."

Those are two very different points and yes someone can do something for the benefit of another and not allow them a say in the decision that will affect their lives. Parents do it everyday. Lovers can do it too.

Hina did not break off anything for Hina. What would have been the point of her doing it face to face? She loved him and hurting him was hurting her too. Was both of them seeing the devastation and sadness on each other's face supposed to really make her be a braver character? She gave up everything - her job, the security and comfort of being near her family and most of all, the boy she loved so that his future wouldn't be ruined.

If you understand how Natsuo is written, you know that Cap't-Save-A-Ho would have demanded to go with his girlfriend. We would later find out that the parents were also against the relationship. What would that have done to the family?

You are clearly seeing that he benefited from what she did. That experience elevated his writing. It got him attention from people which in turn advanced his career.

Again, I am going to stress that she realised that Natsuo was too naive to grasp what being with her at that time would cost him. She had to make that decision for both of them because she could see the full picture.

I could never see making such a huge sacrifice for the person she loved as a cop out.
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Posted 10/16/18 , edited 10/16/18

LaTigreBlue wrote:

Those are two very different points and yes someone can do something for the benefit of another and not allow them a say in the decision that will affect their lives. Parents do it everyday. Lovers can do it too.


I could never see making such a huge sacrifice for the person she loved as a cop out.


Hina isn't a parent and Natsuo isn't a kid. Despite all the BS Hina said to specifically hurt him, as she admitted, Natsuo is an adult. Adults talk about their problems face to face...they don't run from them. Hina ran from the problem because she couldn't face Natsuo.

The way Natsuo was written, he accepted Hina's decision and told Rui he would not go find her when Rui blackmailed a teacher into telling her where Hina went. If Natsuo could do that, then I think he would be capable of talking with Hina about the situation and see that allowing Hina to transfer away was also saving face for her as well.

Instead, she cut the relationship without even giving Natsuo time to process what was going on. Suppose that having left without acknowledging that Natsuo accepted the break and Natsuo himself went around the school asking about Hina and that caused the relationship to be known to everyone (it almost happened with that first year brat who was jealous of him). Suppose Natsuo quit school to go looking for her?

It is a cop out because she ran from the problem without even facing Natsuo whose life she was also affecting. It's a cop out because she wants to say she is doing it all for Natsuo, yet she could't even be sure that her plan wouldn't backfire.

She didn't give up her job....her job at that school was over the moment the staff saw that picture of them. If anything being allowed to transfer out of there without the situation coming to light saved her ability to teach elsewhere, as we saw when she transferred to that island school and no one was the wiser.

What good would breaking up face to face do? Well for one, it would allow her to answer the questions that Natuso would have. It would allow her to make sure that he would accept the situation (as he did see above about not going with Rui to find her).

If anything Natsuo ended up being the bigger adult in the situation. He wasn't the one giving out mixed signals by saying the relationship was over for good, then reappearing in her life and telling her to wait for him.

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Posted 10/16/18 , edited 10/17/18
Did she say things to hurt him because she's mean or was there a bigger issue she was dealing with? The 'mean' things she was saying were for his own good. Hina wasn't running, she was fixing a problem. She was not trying to save face, she was protected the boy she loved. But none of these things that you are throwing into the mix happened. He grieved then he started working towards becoming a better writer so that he would win her back. Then the lies allowed him to get over her. She did make that sacrifice for him.

I get what you are trying to do but it won't work with me. I've read this manga twice so I've already detected that you use fragments of an incident to prove your point rather than the whole which makes your points flawed.

You seem to have misread that situation. He did not accept Hina's decision. He rationalised it. From the very beginning, Natsuo's biggest insecurity when it came to Hina was that he was not an adult. He read the letter and decided that he would become an accomplished author and then he would be worthy enough to present himself to her. He fooled himself into believing that she would have to accept him then. It was not what she wanted or her hang up, it was his.

Even after finding her on the island, he longed to go to her but he still hesitated because the things Shuu said to him were still weighing on his mind.

The thing is you are trying to make the anthill bigger than the mountain in saying that his temporary hurt feelings should weigh more than his dreams and aspirations being waylaid and ultimately having his bright future tarnished which would have been the way she saw it.

But the way - you are saying that when she transferred to the island school, no one was the wiser - that's again not true - she was a source of gossip - they were saying that she'd done something wrong at her old school and was being punished.

The deal she made was that she would cut all contact for a specified time. It was certainly more than 6 months. In the context of the manga, students also get punished. She accepted the deal so that he would not be punished and it would have been suspension or expulsion or at the very least, something on his record. This would have been a mark against him considering that he was trying to get into university.

She needed to make a clean break because he did not understand what being in the relationship would cost him and she knew he would want to stay with her because he would feel that this was the right thing to do. As he only accepted the situation after having been lied to by Hina and Shuu about her having moved on with her life. He would not have accepted the situation if they had a face to face chat.

I don't really consider that to be a mixed signal seeing as how so much time had elapsed between those two events. Hina lied because she was protecting Natsuo. After a long while when she came home for holidays, she misinterpreted seeing hentai mags under his bed and thinking that it was related to him and a desire to get back with her.
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Posted 10/17/18 , edited 10/17/18
Well, we're arguing in circles now. I'll just drop it, but I can't agree with you that Hina went about what she did in the right way.
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Posted 10/17/18 , edited 10/18/18
Here's what I think:
Did Hina leave Natsuo for his benefit? Yes. Did Hina lie to Natsuo saying she no longer has feelings for him to protect Natsuo? Yes. So if Hina broke it off, Natsuo came to terms with the break up and then moves on with his love life with Rui instead (even though Natsuo now knows after the fact that Hina was lying to him about no longer having feelings for him due to drunk confessions), what's wrong with this picture? Why is there negativity towards Rui? Is it because he chose Rui? Would it have looked better if it was Momo (because he almost did it with Momo too).
In my opinion, yes Hina made a huge sacrifice to break things off with Natsuo for the benefit of Natsuo's future. Yes it was a huge decision but she made that on her own. Natsuo was kept in the dark about all of this. Rui even tried to tell HIna to just go back to Natsuo when they were on the island. But Hina chose to stick with her decision and unfortunately it came with a price and that was the opportunity for others to go after Natsuo. Hina could have told Rui "Don't do anything that will make me cry." too when they were on the island. But no, Hina chose to be the "bigger person" and said that she would be ok never seeing Natsuo again for his benefit. So if anything, I think the author made Hina's resolve and character weaker by having her even come back into the story. But of course Sasuga-sensei did it because she knew the fans would go bonkers on her come back. I mean we all love drama or else we wouldn't even be reading this manga series at all, right?
As for Rui, she was always nearby and she always had a thing for Natsuo. Her eyes for him never changed since the first day she admitted she liked him. Did she try to forget about her feelings for Natsuo (post 1st and 2nd rejection) by trying to hook-up with Alex and sending the poor guy way too many mixed messages? Of course! Alex was the rebound guy. Did Rui withhold the fact from Natsuo about her conversation with Hina on the island? Yes. But also keep in mind, Hina said it very clearly that she wanted to move on with her life because that was what she believed was best for Natsuo.
Will I think this story be messed up if Natsuo chooses someone other than Rui to be the end girl? Yes. And that’s because throughout the entire series, it seems (to me) that we were able to see Natsuo and Rui grow up together, found their feelings for each other (after 115 chapters), and even maturing their love for each other (despite the ridiculous amount of women that manage to throw themselves at Natsuo. Come on Miyabi!). Choosing someone other than Rui would just leave a bad taste in my mouth unless there is a clear reason that either side made a stupid mistake that would cost their entire relationship. Quite frankly if Rui decides to bow out of the relationship for an opportunity for Hina and Natsuo to be together again, I would be shocked but I would also give mad props to her for being the biggest person of all.
Ok I’m done soapboxing. Looking forward to seeing whatever drama comes out of the next chapter!

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Posted 10/18/18 , edited 10/18/18

miyuki018 wrote:
yes Hina made a huge sacrifice to break things off with Natsuo for the benefit of Natsuo's future.



The dumb thing about this, was that Natsuo's wish to become an author good enough to make a living is basically a huge reach anyway.

She broke up with him to "preserve his wish to become an author" but she didn't take into account his wish to be with her. One of those wishes was a sure thing, the other was a long shot. She took the sure thing away from him to let him pursue the long shot. Sure she did because she wanted to protect Natsuo, but she also did it because she didn't want to have destroying his chances of becoming an author on her conscious.

I honestly think the manga had done quite a lot to set Hina up as someone who can't make great decisions in life, particularly in relationships. First she decided to date one of her old teachers, who happened to already be married. She kept believing that same man as he claimed for months and months that he would leave his wife, even as it was causing her so much emotional distress. When Natsuo and Rui tried to help her, she said things that she admitted were meant to hurt them (Calling Natsuo a kid and reminding Rui that she didn't know anything about love). She told Natsuo that she loved him, and then rejected him by pretending she was going to commit suicide with him (that's a pretty screwed up way to reject someone). After rejecting Natsuo, and finding him and Rui together, she allowed her jealousy to hurt Rui. Even after rejecting Natsuo, she still actually started going after him. At least Natsuo is decisive in love. Hina is just so wishy washy.

Beyond that, I think a little controversy wouldn't actually hurt Natsuo's chances of becoming a famous author. Natsuo's idol, and the real author highlighted several times in the manga, abandoned his wife and kid for another woman, and then committed double suicide with that woman. None of that destroyed his career, and possibly even made his work even more popular.
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Posted 10/18/18 , edited 10/19/18
Wow though. Natsuo told Rui that he would never give up writing, even for her. This proves that Hina was right. His writing is important to him and Hina saw his potential for greatness. I can't agree with you that Hina is someone who can't make great decisions in life - your statement is hyperbolic. She had two bad love relationships and the second is the one that caused her life to be chaotic. She was a trained professional who was good at what she did. She raised the scores of the subject she taught at the school on the island.

Rui asked her about the affair and she told Rui she did not understand what it was like holding someone. Rui later reflected on that statement and understood what Hina said to her. She didn't say what she said to hurt Rui.

Hina was trying to impress on Natsuo the consequences of them becoming lovers. It's just like when officers or prisoners speak to misbehaving teens to scare them of the path that they are travelling by shouting, threatening or telling them scary stories. Hina was trying to let him know what the ramifications were of them being in a relationship at that time. Yes, she had feelings for him but there would be a high price they would both have to pay if they wanted to be together. She was trying to shock him into accepting reality. I certainly can't fault her for trying to prevent a disaster from occurring.

She had nothing to be jealous of Rui over. Natsuo was not in love with Rui, he was only humouring someone he saw as a friend and had a sexual association with. Seeing them together did shock her because she was able to realise the depth of her feelings for Natsuo. She told Natsuo later that she admired Rui's ability to go after what she wanted, disregarding the consequences because Hina has always been constrained by wanting to please others and trying to do the right thing. Of course, she does make mistakes.

This point is where you are wrong. Hina did not go after Natsuo. She has never consciously, in full control of herself, gone after Natsuo. You seem to have forgotten that Hina tried to get away from Natsuo. She moved out of the house to get away from him and her feelings. He was the one to pursue her with help from Master, ie being physically restrained and forced to hear Natsuo out.

This idea of Hina hurting Rui doesn't make any sense to me. Natsuo is not the last fried pork cutlet. You can't call dibs on someone when that person already has else they're in love with. Natsuo and Hina were in love with each other. Rui only had unrequited 'love' for Natsuo. I can't see that she deserves consideration in that situation. What were they supposed to do - step away from each other in the hopes that Rui efforts in showing off her small breasts and other private parts, crying, clinging to him would make him fall out of love with Hina and in love with her? The only way she was able to get a chance with him was because he was emotionally vulnerable because of Hina breaking up with him.
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Posted 10/18/18 , edited 10/19/18
If you really think about it, Hina, Rui, and Natsuo all made their share of bad decisions. Because if they didn’t we wouldn’t be enjoying this manga as much if everyone was perfect.

Based on how the latest chapter is going, it looks like Miyabi’s being a rival is coming to a close.I’m just curious to see if Hina’s going to finally crack or be the older sister that she’s been saying to Rui and Natsuo all this time.
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Posted 10/19/18 , edited 10/20/18
I'm sure theres a new rival waiting just around the corner too take Serisawa's place :p

don't get me wrong, i enjoy the manga, but it keeps recycling the new rival angle far too often for my taste.
It's about damn time they actually confront their parents about their relationship in my opinion >_<
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Posted 10/19/18 , edited 10/20/18
Miyabi as rival coming to a close? Well, many people believe that her arc as a contender for the woman he ends up with has really just begun.
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Posted 10/21/18 , edited 10/22/18
I’ll be surprised but considering Miyabi’s crush has been going on for 40 chapters and she really hasn’t made any impact to Natsuo other than this kiss, I’m going to say she’s just another character used to initiate the true feelings of the main characters. In this case I believe it’s going to be Hina that will likely start something. Rui already knows Miyabi is in love with Natsuo so her getting involved will be nothing new. . Perhaps now with this kiss Natsuo will finally believe what Rui said and just flat out reject Miyabi.
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Posted 10/21/18 , edited 10/22/18
Quite reasonable. Though if everyone does go their separate ways, she could be the one he has to settle for.
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Posted 10/23/18 , edited 10/23/18
Yeah, for sure this chapter is going to be interesting. I feel like not much will immediately change though. I think that Hina won't say anything, and then Rui will find out from overseas through a photo or from hearsay several chapters down the road. Then drama will happen. I honestly expect her and her coworker to be a thing soon. I mean, in all honestly, he is a better match for her.

I personally like Serizawa though. I feel like my opinions might change soon, but depending on how things go with Natsuo, if she can accept the stuff he did that goes against her normal belief system, I will like her a lot more. It can be tough to come to terms sometimes with people who you feel very strongly about, but have belief systems that clash with your own. This goes especially with Seri due to how strong her beliefs are and how tore up she has been in previous chapters. I mainly reference the chat with Slut-senpai but you can tell in her writing.

Needless to say, this is getting pretty good and I am looking forward to the future chapters as well as the anime adaptation in January
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